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Those Who Deny the Eternality of Hellfire (Ibn Taymiyya & co.)

Hellfire eternal finite Ibn Taymiyya Ibn Qayyim Ibn Arabi

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#16 Murat Yazici

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 05:15 PM

View PostMurat Yazici, on 25 October 2009 - 08:39 PM, said:

Notice al-Albānī's claim that "Ibn Taymiyya composed the treatise during his studies, before mastering the religious sciences." This is really a silly claim, considering the fact that Ibn Qayyim wrote three additional books defending the "non-eternality of Hellfire" (fana al-nar) after Ibn Taymiyya's death.

Now, more on this:

Both Dr. Ebubekir Sifil and Professor Hoover relay the following information (which I copied from Hoover's paper as it is already in English):

The Beginnings of Ibn al-Qayyim's Deliberations

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya reveals how he first broached the question of everlasting chastisement with Ibn Taymiyya in an autobiographical note found in his Shifa' al- alil (Healing of the Sick):

I had asked Shaykh al-Islam [about everlasting chastisement]. He said to me, "This issue is very great", and he gave no reply concerning it. Some time had passed after that when I saw in the commentary of 'Abd b. Hamid [or Humayd] al-Kiththi one of those traditions I have mentioned. So, I sent the book to [Ibn Taymiyya] while he was in his last session (fi majlisihi al-akhir). I marked that place [in the book], and I told the messenger, "Say to him, "This place is difficult for him, and he does not know what it is." Then, he wrote his famous work about it. whoever has the grace of knowledge, let him bring it forth, and above each one having knowledge is one who is All-Knowing (pp. 564-65).


It appears that Ibn Taymiyya was not sure how to respond to Ibn al-Qayyim's first inquiry on the duration of the Fire. He only answered that the question was "very great." Ibn al-Qayyim's second inquiry was prompted by reading the commentary of 'Abd b. Hamid al-Kissi (or al-Kiththi as he writes), a ninth-century Hadith scholar from Kiss near Samarqand (d. 249/863)7 A tradition related by 'Abd b. Hamid puzzled Ibn al-Qayyim. So, he marked the spot in the book and sent it to his teacher via messenger. This occurred "while [Ibn Taymiyya] was in his last session," presumably near the end of his life. In reply Ibn Taymiyya composed what Ibn al-Qayyim calls his "famous work."

The "famous work" in question is Al-Radd 'ala man qala bi-fana' al-janna wa al-nar.


#17 faqir

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 10:10 PM

as-salamu` alaikum

Has anyone got access to this file:

http://onlinelibrary...09.01260.x/full

Some excerpts were posted elsewhere:

Quote

Those who say that the chastisement of unbelievers is a benefit to them and a mercy to them circle around this sense and do not penetrate its depth. But what benefit to them is there in chastisement that does not end, that is perpetual by virtue of the perpetuity of the Lord - Most High is He?! Ponder this point very thoroughly, and give it its due reflection. Join that with the senses of His names and His attributes, with what His word and the word of His Messenger indicate, and with what the Companions and those after them said. Do not rush to speak without knowledge or to condemn. If the dawn of what is conect shines on you, [that is good]. If not, then ascribe the judgment to what God ascribes it in His statement, "Surely your Lord does whatever He wills" (Q. 11:107), and hold firm to the statement of 'Ali b. Abi Talib - May God be pleased with him. He mentioned that the People of the Garden enter the Garden and the People of the Fire enter the Fire. He described their state. Then he said, "After that, God does what He wills" (p. 663).


Quote

Ibn al-Qayyim's most frequently cited treatment of the Fire's duration appears in his book on eschatology Hddi al-arwdh ila bilad al-afrah (Spurring Souls on to the Realms of Joys) [hereafter Hddf�.9 A marking on one manuscript of Hddi dates it to 745/1344-45 with the text, "He [i.e., Ibn alQayyim] completed its composition in the year 745 A.H."10 I have no reason to doubt this date, but it would be good to have corroborating evidence before accepting it as established. Some 400 years later, the Yemeni scholar Muhammad b. Isma;'il al-san'ani (d. 1182/1768) quotes H�d� at length in his refutation Raf ' al-astar and charges both Ibn al-Qayyim and Ibn Taymiyya with maintaining that Hell-Fire will pass away (fand' al-nar)}1 Despite al-San'ani's assertions, it has not been obvious what can be rightly learned about Ibn Taymiyya from the discussion in Hddi. At a few points toward the beginning, Ibn al-Qayyim does indicate that he is quoting Ibn Taymiyya. Unfortunately, however, he does not demarcate Ibn Taymiyya's words from his own, indicate the text that he is citing, or make clear which view his teacher took. To make matters more difficult, modern scholars have been hard pressed to find Ibn Taymiyya speaking about the duration of the Fire anywhere in his own texts. On this basis, Saudi scholar 'Ali al-Harbi even concluded in 1990 that Ibn Taymiyya never said that the Fire will pass away.

Quote

Ibn Taymiyya's Fand' al-nar gains added significance in view of Ibn alQayyim's autobiographical note in Shifd' quoted above. There, Ibn al-Qayyim comments that he sent his question about 'Abd b. Hamid's book to Ibn Taymiyya during "his last session" and that his teacher responded with "his famous work." There is little reason to doubt that this "famous work" is Fand' al-nar. Ibn Taymiyya's text gives careful attention to 'Abd b. Hamid's commentary and the report from 'Umar that troubled Ibn al-Qayyim. Moreover, mention of Ibn Taymiyya being in his "last session" strongly suggests that he was near life's end. This is corroborated by references which Caterina Bori has identified showing Fand' al-nar to be the last treatise that Ibn Taymiyya authored.15 In a long list of Ibn Taymiyya's works, his disciple Ibn Rushayyiq (d. 749/1348-49) observes, "In his final imprisonment, he produced Qd'idafi radd 'aid man qala bi-fana' al-janna wa al-nar, in about 20 sheets."16 Adding more information, the biographer al-Safadi (d. 764/1363) states concerning Ibn Taymiyya's Fi baqa' al-janna wa al-nar wa fana'ihima, "This is the last thing that he compiled in the citadel, and al-'Allama Qadi al-Qudah Taqi al-Din al-Subki has refuted it."17 Taqi al-Din al-Subki did in fact write a refutation of Ibn Taymiyya's Fana' al-nar in 1348, and this will be discussed below. More to the point, it is evident that al-Safadi's and Ibn Rushayyiq's notices refer to the same treatise, namely Fana' al-nar, and that this was the last work that Ibn Taymiyya wrote during his final imprisonment in the citadel of Damascus. This incarceration began in 726/1326. Ibn Taymiyya's pen and paper were confiscated in Jumada al-akhira 728/April-May 1328,18 and he died in prison later the same year.

From these observations we may conclude that Ibn Taymiyya wrote his last work Fana' al-nar in response to an inquiry from Ibn al-Qayyim about the duration of punishment and the Fire. This occurred during Ibn Taymiyya's final imprisonment, just before he was deprived of his writing materials in the spring of 728/1328. Ibn al-Qayyim then followed his teacher's treatise very closely several years later, perhaps in 745/1344-45, when composing his discussion of the Fire's duration in Hddi and more loosely when writing on the same topic in Shifd'.


EDIT: Don't worry I got access to it - very interesting read!

http://www.asharis.wordpress.com


#18 Murat Yazici

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 05:13 AM

View Postfaqir, on 30 November 2010 - 10:10 PM, said:

as-salamu` alaikum

Has anyone got access to this file:

http://onlinelibrary...09.01260.x/full

EDIT: Don't worry I got access to it - very interesting read!

This was available online when I was writing the above messages:

Islamic Universalism: Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's Salafi Deliberations on the Duration of Hell-Fire, The Muslim World, Jan 2009 by Jon Hoover

At that time, I copied and saved the entire paper as a Word file, but it has some typos (probably because of non-ASCII characters). Have you found a pdf version?

Wassalam.

#19 faqir

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Posted 01 December 2010 - 08:39 PM

as-salamu `alaikum
Yes. I can email it to you if you like.

http://www.asharis.wordpress.com


#20 Murat Yazici

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 09:33 PM

A while ago, a brother brought the following article to my attention:

http://muridslog.blo...-hereafter.html

Shaykh Ahmad ibn Siddiq Ghumari:

Ibn Qayyim provided the proofs for the matter of hell's coming to an end (fana an-nar) and did so in a perfectly sufficient manner, and some of the great gnostics followed him in this; and he affirmed that a day will come when watercress shall grow therein; although Sha'rani answered this by saying that this refers solely to the highest lever wherein dwell the sinful believers, not the levels wherein the unbelievers dwell. The evidences regarding this are somewhat conflicting, yet the proofs of the opinion which states that hell will either come to an end in itself – as Ibn Qayyim maintains – or that the pain therein will end whilst the formal image of it remains – as the Shaykh al-Akbar (Ibn 'Arabi) affirms – are stronger.

The sufficient proof of this is that God's mercy is more powerful than His wrath, and always takes precedence over it; now this precedence and power would be meaningless if it were left unmanifested and if consequently the manifestation of wrath were not ended. When the manifestation of mercy is revealed to the denizens of hell and the manifestation of wrath ends for them, this will either take the form of the torment ('adhab) becoming sweetness ('udhuba) and the pain ending whilst its image remains in order that God's warning be fulfilled, as the Shaykh al-Akbar maintains, or else it will take the form of the complete end of hell as others maintain. Yet this latter opinion could be reconciled with the opinion of the Shaykh al-Akbar by asserting that the meaning of the end of hell is the passing of its pain and torment, not the formal image of these things which will in fact then become bliss itself. Therefore the two opinions are essentially the same in my view, and this is our inclination – indeed, it is the conviction with which we stand before God Almighty.

And those who look to the inner meaning of this matter will come to know that nothing exists except the Act of God, first and last. As for Taqi ad-Din Subki's attempted refutation of Ibn Taymiyya in this regard, I gained nothing from it when I read it twenty years ago, except the knowledge that Taqi ad-Din Subki – never mind his son Taj ad-Din – was not what I used to think of him, and certainly not what his son claimed about him. Back then, when I finished reading his work, I wrote a short rebuttal of it, the essence of which was the contention that between Subki and Ibn Taymiyya was a vast gulf of knowledge and strength of reasoning, and that the latter was leagues more knowledgeable than the former.

- Taken from the collected letters of Ahmad ibn Siddiq Ghumari, edited by A. Talidi.

***

I plan to comment on this at a later time. For the moment, I'll just remark that there are a number of serious blunders in this "letter" and these blunders ruin the credibility of the author himself.

Before I continue, however, let me ask brothers in this forum the following: Is there any doubt about the authenticity of this letter, i.e. about its belonging to al-Ghumari?

Edited by Murat Yazici, 18 December 2010 - 09:34 PM.


#21 faqir

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 08:25 PM

salam, I guess there is no way of knowing for definite without examining manuscript / original letter but the letters were compiled by one of his senior students:

Shaykh Abdullah bin Abd al-Qadir al-Talidi biography

http://www.asharis.wordpress.com


#22 Murat Yazici

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 09:42 AM

View PostMurat Yazici, on 18 December 2010 - 09:33 PM, said:

Shaykh Ahmad ibn Siddiq Ghumari:

The sufficient proof of this is that God's mercy is more powerful than His wrath, and always takes precedence over it; now this precedence and power would be meaningless if it were left unmanifested and if consequently the manifestation of wrath were not ended. When the manifestation of mercy is revealed to the denizens of hell and the manifestation of wrath ends for them, this will either take the form of the torment ('adhab) becoming sweetness ('udhuba) and the pain ending whilst its image remains in order that God's warning be fulfilled, as the Shaykh al-Akbar maintains, or else it will take the form of the complete end of hell as others maintain. Yet this latter opinion could be reconciled with the opinion of the Shaykh al-Akbar by asserting that the meaning of the end of hell is the passing of its pain and torment, not the formal image of these things which will in fact then become bliss itself. Therefore the two opinions are essentially the same in my view, and this is our inclination - indeed, it is the conviction with which we stand before God Almighty.

There are a number of problems with this approach. Some of them have already been mentioned (with quotes from ulama) in earlier posts under this thread.

According to this line of thinking, one would be forced to conclude that Iblis [Satan] will enter Paradise, too. Please see message # 12 for further discussion.

Secondly, "that God's mercy is more powerful than His wrath" is misunderstood. This is explained lucidly by Imam-i Rabbani Mujaddid-i Alf-i thani rahimahullah in his Maktubat (my translation from Turkish):

"Allahu ta'ala's dhat, His self is the enemy of kufr and kafirs. All the idols that people worship and those who worship them are enemies of the dhat of Allahu ta'ala. Burning in Jahannam forever is the punishment for this vile act. The desires of nafs and all types of sins are not like that. The enmity of Allahu ta'ala to these is not from His dhat, but is from His attributes. Allahu ta'ala's wrath towards sinners is not with the wrath of His dhat, but with the wrath of His attributes. Therefore sinners will not remain in Jahannam forever, and perhaps He will forgive many of them [without ever placing them in Jahannam]. Since Allahu ta'ala's enmity towards kufr and kafirs is from His dhat, His attributes of rahmah and ra'fah will not reach kafirs in the akhirat [hereafter] and the attribute of rahmah will not remove dhat's enmity. Dhat's enmity is stronger than attribute's mercy.... In an hadith al-qudsi it is stated (My rahmah exceeded my ghadab). This means 'My attribute of rahmah exceeded My attribute of ghadab.' That is, it exceeded My attribute of ghadab towards the sinners of mu'mins [believers]. This does not mean that the attribute of rahmah exceeds the ghadab of dhat towards kafirs and mushriqs." (Translated from letter 266)


#23 Murat Yazici

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:22 PM

View Postfaqir, on 19 December 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

salam, I guess there is no way of knowing for definite without examining manuscript / original letter but the letters were compiled by one of his senior students:
http://daralhadith.w...adir-al-talidi/

Alaikum salam:

I asked some questions to Khalid Williams. He gave the following information:

http://muridslog.blo...-hereafter.html

The book is called 'al-Fatawa wa al-Rasa'il al-Sughra al-Musamma: Darr al-Ghamam al-Raqiq bi-Rasa'il al-Shaykh al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn al-Siddiq'

The letters were collected by Abd Allah ibn Abd al-Qadir al-Talidi.

Published by Sheikh Talidi himself, 2000. The book is easily available in bookshops in Morocco; I believe it was released by the Siddiqiyya Zawiya in Tangiers.

There is no doubt it is authentic; Sheikh Talidi was one of Sheikh Ahmad's closest students, and would certainly not publsih anything he felt to be inauthentic. What adds further strength to this is the fact that Sheikh Talidi himself does not agree with this opinion and writes in a footnote that he does not, and asks Allah to forgive Sheikh Ahmad for writing it. If he felt there was any possibility at all that these were not truly Sheikh Ahmad's words, he obviously would not have included them in the collected letters.

(The letter itself was translated by me, specifically for this blog. The entire book has not been translated.)

***

Furthermore, as you know, he had placed Dr. Haddad's comments in his blog:

http://muridslog.blo...-raised-by.html

The letter is thoroughly devoid of tahqiq and is merely Shaykh Ahmadal-Ghumari's opinion of Ibn al-Qayyim's opinion of Ibn Taymiyya's opinion. Yet the letter does make the important distinction that even though Shaykhal-Akbar's position and Ibn Taymiyya's position appear identical they differ fundamentally, in that the former's position is that the torment of hell does not end but that its pain is changed into bliss for its denizens while the latter built on some weak hadiths and aathaar that the fire of hell willbe extinguished. There is no full authoritative tahqiq on the issue I believe. Ibn al-Qayyim approached it in Hadi al-Arwah but he is overly preoccupied in justifying Ibn Taymiyya's position and defending him against Shaykh al-Islam al-Taqi al-Subki who denounced it in his Rasa'ilal-Subkiyya, in print, in which he considers Ibn Taymiyya's position a contradiction of the Qur'an tantamount to kufr, wAllahu a`lam. As for Shaykh Ahmad's disparagement of al-Subki and his son it is rejected back to him as it shows poor judgment and only serves to ruin his own image. The unparalleled avalanche of criticism and refutations of Ibn Taymiyya both by his contemporaries and by later major authorities in comparison to the praise heaped on al-Subki by his contemporaries *other* than his own son--such as Hafiz al-Dhahabi, for example, who considered him the greatest hafiz of his time--and later authorities, shows that al-Ghumari is leagues off the mark in his scoffing preference of Ibn Taymiyya over him. But Ghumari is known to be a rabid disparager of the Ash`ari School, and it is a mark of his imbalance that as much as he hates Ibn Taymiyya and reviles him in so many books of his, yet he hates the Ash`aris even more! He seems not to know that Hafiz al-San`ani the author of Subul al-Salam also authored a treatise in refutation of Ibn Taymiyya in respect to his belief in fana'al-nar--which al-Albani republished with a lengthy introduction- -among other such refutations. Yet, in the same book of al-Talidi, Ahmad al-Ghumari also heaps praises on al Albani.


Edited by Murat Yazici, 01 January 2011 - 08:37 PM.


#24 Murat Yazici

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 08:45 PM

Two relevant quotes:

Shaikh al-Makki, a scholar contemporary with Yavuz Sultan Salim Khan, answered the attacks against Hadrat Muhyiddin ibn al-'Arabi and wrote: "Ibn Taymiyya said that disbelievers would get out of Hell after burning there for many years and supported this claim with the hadith, 'Some day the doors of Hell will open and grass will grow on its ground.' He also quoted some other hadiths. Whereas, it is clearly stated in the Qur'an that disbelievers will remain in Hell eternally. There has been tawatur and ijma' on this fact. Most scholars said that Ibn Taymiyya opposed the tawatur and ijma." [Al-janab al-gharbi, Rashid Effendi section, Sulaimaniyya Library.]


***

'Abd al-Wahhab ash-Sharani wrote: "Those who say that all the inhabitants of Hell will go out and that Hell will become empty, in fact, oppose the Qur'an and Hadith. The Ahl as-Sunnat scholars, the just imams, unanimously said that the punishment in Hell would be eternal for disbelievers. The ayat, 'We will throw those who part from the believers' path into Hell,' is an answer to them. The first division of Hell, where those believers with a lot of sins will be punished, will become empty. Its other divisions, where disbelievers will be punished, will never be emptied. Believers will be set free from the punishment by attaining shafa'a and only their place will become empty and grass will grow on the ground of the first division of Hell. Imam al-Qurtubi writes that the above hadith is mawkuf, that it was not reported to have been heard from Rasulullah ('alaihi 's-salam). Hadrat Muhyiddin ibn al-'Arabi, too, said that the doors of  Hell will never be opened and that disbelievers will remain in Hell eternally. Those scholars who said that they would go out of Hell meant that sinful believers will go out." [Mukhtasaru tadhkirat al-Qurtubi, p.96.]

***

I do not have a copy of the first text, but I do have an independent Turkish translation of the second. The above translation is in general agreement with the one I have.


Edited by faqir, 23 February 2014 - 07:46 AM.


#25 faqir

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:04 PM

The following scans were provided elsewhere by some followers of Abdullah al-Harari with the statement:

Quote

Ibnul-Qayyim Al-Jawziyyah narrates that Ibn Taymiyah said that "hellfire will cease and the blasphemers will exit it"

Attached File  hady_alarwah_cover.pdf   48.02K   15 downloads
Attached File  ibnqayyimjawziyyahhellfireend.pdf   130.95K   20 downloads

And the following is a scan of the late Nasir al-Din al-Albani confirming this which was also posted by them:


Attached File  alalbaniibntaymiyyacover.jpg   67.94K   17 downloads
Attached File  al-albaniibntaymiyyahellfireend.jpg   177.83K   18 downloads


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#26 Murat Yazici

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostMurat Yazici, on 18 October 2009 - 01:51 PM, said:

Ibn Taymiyya says:

Therefore, while it is deduced that Hellfire will pass away with The Book, The Sunna, and the words of The Companions, those who say that Hellfire will remain forever have no evidence from The Book, The Sunna, and the words of The Companions.


Source: Al-Radd 'ala man qala bi-fana' al-janna wa al-nar.


It appears to me that acquiring a copy of this book will be useful. I cannot see any reference to this book in Abu Rumaysah's article. Based on what he has written here, one gets the impression that he is unaware of this text. Jon Hoover gives the following information about it:

Ibn Taymiyya, Al-Radd 'ala man qala bi-fana al-janna wa al-nar [hereafter Fana al-nar], ed. Muhammad b. 'Abd Allah al-Simhari (Riyadh: Dar al-balansiyya, 1415/ 1995). Al-Simhari discusses the work's authenticity on pp. 12-16. I am indebted to Mohammad Hassan Khalil for drawing my attention to this text and making it available to me. Khalil's, "Muslim Scholarly Discussions on Salvation and the Fate of Others' " (Ph.D. diss., University of Michigan, 2007), 105-66, covers some of the same ground as the present article, but with different concerns and insights. At an earlier date (1405/1984), Muhammad Nasir al-Din al-Albani published a portion of Fana al-nar in the introduction to his edition of al-San ani, Raf al-astar, 9-14 (corresponding to al-Simhari's edition, 52-57 and 80-83), with photographs of the source manuscript on pp. 53-55.




More information here:

http://taymiyyun.wor...tag/eternality/

Ibn Taymiyya's statement can also be found here (as well as the Arabic text):

“In which case, the argument for the ending of Hellfire is supported by the Quran, the Sunnah, and the statements of the Sahabah; while the affirmers of its eternality have with them no Quran, no Sunnah, and no statements of the Sahabah.”

#27 Murat Yazici

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:38 PM

View PostMurat Yazici, on 18 October 2009 - 11:32 AM, said:


There is a subsection titled "al-Albani's Confession" in Dr. Sifil's paper. Al-Albani says:

"Ibn Qayyim has a second opinion according to which Hellfire will never end. Ibn Taymiyya has a book refuting those who say Janna [Paradise] and Jahannam [Hell] will cease to exist. At that time [20 years ago] I thought that Ibn Taymiyya shared this second opinion of Ibn Qayyim. The author al-San`ani, with what he has quoted from Ibn Qayyim, explains that the above mentioned refutation [written by Ibn Taymiyya] is not against those who say Hellfire will end, but it is against the jahmis who say Paradise will cease to exist and he [Ibn Taymiyya] states that Hell will cease to exist. Moreover, he does not state only this, but states also that the people of Hell will enter paradises with rivers flowing under them after Hell ceases to exist."

Introduction to al-San`ani's Raf` al-Astar, p. 7.




http://shaikhalbaani...ng-of-the-fire/


"And that which is found in some of his books and some of the books of his Shaikh, Ibn Taymiyyah, the apparent meaning of which is that the fire will cease to exist totally–it is fitting that this is taken to mean the perishing of the fire which the disobedient sinners from the Muslims will enter.... And I have written an introduction to this book [Raf’ul Astaar of San’aani], almost fifty pages long, confirming the view that as-San’aani, may Allaah have mercy on him, held: that the saying that the fire of the disbelievers will cease is something which contradicts the Book and the Sunnah. And the [high] regard we have of the Shaikh of Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim al-Jawziyyah is that they would not fall into a contradiction as apparent as this one."


Comment: It is clear to me that al-Albani does not believe in what he advises other people to think, i.e. that Ibn Taymiyya was referring to "the perishing of the fire which the disobedient sinners from the Muslims will enter."

#28 faqir

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:49 AM

From salafi preacher Salih b. Fawzan's website:


http://www.alfawzan....g.sa/node/13653

: ما صحة القول المنسوب لشيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله بفناء النار ؟
الجواب : لا حاجة لك بهذه المسألة ، ولا تُسأل عنها يوم القيامة ، وليست من أمور دينك ، فهي من فضول المسائل ، اتركها ، وهي نُسبت إلى شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية والله تعالى أعلم ، لكنها لا يترتب عليه فائدة دينية .


http://www.asharis.wordpress.com






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